An Exclusive Chat with Pastor Ituah Ighodalo at 62

How does it feel to be 62 years

Well, I feel 35, I don’t feel 62 at all, I think I feel 35.

Why is that?

I am just still moving, still doing what I used to do even since age 35 and so on. God has given us grace, he has given us reasonably good health he surrounded us with very good people and He has given us a clear vision of what we are supposed to achieve. So we a pursuing it very aggressively.

What are you most grateful for?

I am grateful for good health, I am grateful for the children that my late wife left behind for me. I am grateful for family, a very, very strong family. My immediate family, my sister, my fantastic people, my sister-in-law. I am thankful for good in-laws too. My mother-in-law, my two brothers-in-law and the other related people in the family. My step brothers and sister inlaws.

I am grateful for the church that God has given me to manage He has given me quite a good set of people who have been of tremendous help and support and understanding. And I am grateful for my practice. SIO, we have very good partners, Mr. Getty Mr. Smith, mature people who work well together, we love one another. It is more than a partnership, it is a brotherhood. We are brothers we are there for each other and we allow each other to be. And we have been able to together build an institution that has transcends into this level of relationship that will outlive all three of us.

So I am grateful for all that God has done.

It is a painful thing losing my wife, there is no doubt about it. God and I are still talking. But I am thankful that he did not put us to shame. And I am thankful that she left an exceptional legacy. Everywhere I go, I hear good comments about what she did, about who she helped and so on. And it is not about saying good things about the departed, it is a question of people genuinely being positively influenced by this great lady. So I am grateful.

My only source of anxiety, like anybody else, I can do a bit more resource, in terms of financial resources personally but my concern is Nigeria and by extension Africa, and people of black skin and then I am also worried about the world. But let me deal with Nigeria first and hope that somewhere or the other God will help us to have very good, great and outstanding leadership in Nigeria. If only that could emerge then I will know that I have done my best.

When you talk about leadership, Nigeria is currently going through security, cash issues and all that, how do you see leadership generally in Nigeria?

Leadership in Nigeria is near failure, let me be honest with you. A lot of people don’t understand how Nigeria is still surviving with the kind of things it has been through. But I think it is the grace of God. The quality of the resource space of Nigeria and the quality of the people depends on their resilience, their creativity, and their ability to survive has kept the country going. But it could have done a lot better if we have had very single-minded, very honest, very ethical, very compassionate leadership that cares about Nigeria and the average Nigerians.

I think the problem of Nigeria is about three or four problems. Number one, we are not quite a nation, people do not quite feel that they are Nigerians. They feel that they are of a certain tribe. We have not been able to wield ourselves together into a nation, thinking nationalistic.

We, first of all, think tribal. and that tribal thinking separates us a little bit. Then, they try to introduce religion into it, I pray they don’t succeed because I grew up in a family where my grand Uncle was Muslim, my grandfather was Christian, my Aunties were Muslim, my uncles Muslims, some were Christian and we all lived happily together so we must not allow that. And we must also know that all the tribes are related and we need one another to survive.

The second problem with Nigeria is the foundation that the British laid, the British colonial masters deliberately did not want to live behind a strong Nigeria or a strong Africa, they wanted an Africa that they will continue to control and influence.

And since we didn’t want them to be our colonial masters anymore, they did the next best thing in their interest, to give us leadership that is not capable,

leadership they could manipulate, the leadership they could blackmail, the leadership they could threaten and leadership that was corrupt. And use that corruption to continue to exploit our resources.

one of them Herbert Marcarly said in 1584 that if you can make the Africans think that everything Africa is inferior and everything British is superior then we can control their minds. And that is how we think today, that is why I am wearing suit, and we are wearing shoes here and there. That is why we prefer straight hair and wigs, and that is why we prefer using fork and knife.

Everyone once they make some money wants to buy a house in London because we have been programmed to think that Mongo Park discovered the River Niger. The Captain brothers were the ones who did this or that.

Lord Lugard was a good man, was he a good man, was he acting in our interest? They manipulated our history, they manipulated our sense of value, they manipulated everything and now we just don’t think like we should be thinking.

The third problem with Nigeria, is the selfishness, greed, the ignorance, of the average Nigerian. They are very, very self-centred people, selfish people, greedy people on average. Apart from our creativity and our hard work, the average just wants things for themselves. So that culture of not thinking for everybody, allows us to rule badly when we have the opportunity to rule. We come into leadership with our selfishness, our greed, with our corruption and we rule like that. We sort ourselves out before we deal with the people. So average Nigeria thinks like that and it keeps breeding that kind of leadership.

The fourth problem in Nigeria is that a few ethical people, who know right from wrong. they are very few, they are getting fewer by the day. Because of this culture that is evolving and those who are few, a lot of them are abroad in the diaspora and those who are around are not courageous enough, or bold enough to face the leadership that has emerged. At the end of the day, they get weary, they get tired, and they go back to their tent.

So corrupt leadership has held the nation hostage, what you call state capture and they continue to reign.

The solution is first of all prayer to God, asking God to help us, because God can help us, he can take a David out of the wilderness and put him into leadership as he did for Singapore with Liwayu, he can take Solomon, He can take an Elisha or a Moses.

Apart from God, the next solution is that those who know better should come together unite and fight for the soul of Nigeria. In this last election, 18 people wanted to run for President of Nigeria, I can tell you straight away that 14 or 15 of them knew they were wasting their time and wasting our time.

They knew they couldn’t do it, Some were capable but they didn’t have the network, and some were not capable. So why were they wasting everybody’s time? And telling us they were candidates. I don’t know what they will benefit from it later on. Maybe somehow, there is some benefit for them later on, maybe they will put it on their CV, that they are ex-presidential candidates, I don’t know. But as far as taking a strong and realistic run for the presidency of Nigeria they were not capable and we’re wasting their time.

And I was saying to myself why don’t they all come together and unite, work together? If they had come together, they would have achieved much, they would have chosen one of them, to represent them. If he becomes President or whatever, the other ones can get various positions and if God gives them long life, they all build together and then can take their position later on but they won’t do it. The Christian leaders won’t unite and speak with one voice and fight for Nigeria.

The knowledgeable Nigerians won’t unite, speak with one voice and fight for Nigeria. Even the political class keep fighting one another all over the place, then the strongest or the most corrupt, or the richest, or the boldest of all of them all takes it all and rows it according to how he likes because he took it by himself.

So in all of these, what exactly are the religious leaders doing?

Religious leaders should first of all be true to themselves. Some of them are not true to themselves. Some of them have gotten into the calling for their reasons, personal aggrandizement, well they are human beings, they are Nigerians, and they have done it. So the first thing is letting them be true to themselves. Are they truly serving God, and helping the people or are helping themselves? Those who are true to themselves should then have a process of speaking the truth and also training according to the ways of Christ their followers and their disciples. So that they can bring to birth, more serious capable competent truthful sincere people.

They should invest in training their people and exposing their people to lead and if possible power. They should unite, come together and look for how to help, bring about competent leadership in Nigeria by being a sincere pressure group, and evaluating what other leaders do. like Nelson Mandela, the Bishop Tutu, they speak, so that people know that we can’t behave anyhow there is a group of leaders, Christians ns and even Muslims that are watching. The reason why David could not misbehave was that Nathan was willing to come to David and say David you have behaved badly. The reason why Moses had to change his strategy was that he had a father-in-law called Jethro. Who came to Moses and say Moses you weary yourself, you stress the people. Appoint other people to help you.

We need in Nigeria people of truth. People that can speak truth to power, number one. number two we need them to come together to select leaders, you want to run, no, no, no where are you coming from? What is your background? They should collectively talk, you will know, that you are capable.

But as it is now, I think maybe they have one or two Godfathers that are doing that, that is selecting people to work with but it does not sit well with the people. isn’t that like saying what is not supposed to be?

We have leaders in political parties now, one or two leaders that select candidates for a position, lets’s take Lagos state for example, people do not exactly like that.

Well let’s be realistic, leaders breed other leaders, and nobody lives forever, David brought Solomon, Moses brought Jouhsua and so forth. God fatherism whether you like it or not is there. The problem with the Godfatherism we are having today is two problems.

number one is the quality of the godfather himself. there are mafia Godfathers, there is Pope Godfather, there is Mother Theresa’s godmother and so forth. The problem we have is the quality of the godfathers.

The second problem is the overbearing influence of the godfather. A godfather needs to know when to back off and say I have done my job. Let me go and be an adviser and let us not have two kings at the same time. David installed Solomon, he backed off. The Oni of Ife came here today, he is my nephew. We supported him to become Oni of Ife but I am not sitting with him at the Palace, telling him what to do and how to run his palace. Once in a while when they say pastor talk to Oni for us, I will talk to him. Once in a while when he does one or two things, I say Oni how did that go, what happened here and he will explain. Then once in a while when it had something good, I say well done, Aburo you have done something great. That is the role of a godfather, not an overbearing influence but a moral conscience as to how things should go. Every society has them. There is a leadership election process and therefore that is the role that the Church must play. I am not saying that they should become politicians, I am just saying that they should have comments in terms of politics and leadership.

People must be able to fear somebody, in those days, they say we don’t vote into a position of power someone whose parents we don’t know, what they are saying is that someone who doesn’t have a check and a balance, who we can report if he misbehaves you don’t give him unfettered power. Because when the power gets into his head, who will talk to him? Above all we all must have the fear of God, it is what guides the behaviour of man, when at the end of the day, you look around, the Jews wear something on their head called the kupó, I asked them why they were that thing on their head, they said it was giving to them by instruction by Moses. That when they put those things on their head especially if they are leaders, they know that there is God on their heads and look down into their brains so they should fear God. So even if they wear a black hat under that black hat, they have it there. Saying that If you don’t fear man, God is watching and that is exactly what we should all do. To fear God.

What keeps me sometimes in check, is when I see this thing I want to do, what will God think? And when you know what God will think, you will decide that you don’t do what your body wants to. So we need to fear God at the end of the day. If we can do that, Nigeria has tremendous resources, unbelievable potential, great Mary of people that can transform this nation but some of them are…

So how does the failure of leadership affects the people generally?

The Bible says that when the wicked rule, the people mourn but when the righteous are in power the people rejoice. One of the greatest examples of leadership in modern-day history is the leader of Dubai, he says a leader’s job is to make his people happy.

The Bible said that everywhere Jesus Christ went, he was doing good. Somebody the other day was thanking a leader, that when he was sick, the leader paid his medical bill, I said that is okay, the problem is that the leader took the money that he would have used to provide free health care for you, your wife, children and unborn children took it and then gave you only a bit of it to pay your medical bills. The people are in pain when a leader does not consider the people. The reason why David was a great leader was that he loved his people. The people were broke, the people were in trouble, they were broken, and the people were destroyed. The people had no hope we were those that ran to David and within a few years, he turned them into mighty men. So if you have a good leader, he will build good hospitals, good schools, and good roads. He will not overtask the people. He will exploit the resources, he will make sure that every child has an opportunity to live, he will make sure like they do in Dubai, that once you graduate they will give you some money, once you get to a certain age they will give you a building, they encourage you to be educated. If you want to go to school, they allow you to go to school.

Awolowo gave us free education, he gave Cocoa House, Awolowo gave the WNTV, he did a lot of roads in and out of the whole place, he did was we call the WNDC today, or Odua group that created industry and employment and all that, till today, they still consider western Nigeria to be the intellectual powerhouse of Nigeria. it was the leadership that created free education that brought that to bear. We heard Professor Oyebode today, he said he was a beneficiary of free education and through him, he has a lot of lawyers in his family, and I am sure he is talking about himself, one or two of his brothers, whom he educated, his two children who are lawyers, maybe one or two of his children’s wife or in-laws that are lawyers. There is also a family in the north that is like that. They have about 32 PHD or second-degree holders. Magaji’s family also, Usman Mugaji was telling him, that they invested a lot in education they meet once in a while, they talk together, and everyone is a graduate.

And in all of these, with the elections are done, what do you have to say, to the incoming government?

They should please, I beg work in the best interest of the average Nigerian. They should if they can get rid of corruption. How many beds does a man sleep on? How many clothes does he want to wear? They should not a throne corruption in this country. They should try to get the best brains to do the best for Nigeria. They should be selfless and not go there to make money or share the cake. They should be bold enough to restructure our nation and our economy and stop us from being dependent on oil alone. They should be fair to all Nigerians. That is what I am begging them to do.

At 62 Sir what lessons have you learned in life?
The first lesson that I learned was when I was about ten years old. I ran for elections. in my primary school, I campaigned very well that I began to act as though I was already a school prefect because I felt I was quite qualified to do the job and I was ready to serve so I became a bit strict, I was acting when the election came I lost woefully. Those who had promised to vote for me none of them did.

So the first lesson I learned is that you cannot trust men, every man and woman including yourself at the end of the day they will be acting in their interest.

The second lesson I learned from my parents was that truth never fails. When you are truthful, you tell the truth, you will not fail and you will have no fear. I sleep well because I am a truthful person. I don’t exaggerate, I don’t flatter unnecessarily, and I don’t even flatter people, I tell the truth as I see it nicely. I don’t owe anybody. I don’t go begging people unnecessarily, I do ask people to do me one or two favours and help me. But I don’t beg anybody for anything. US you can help me, help. If you can’t don’t help me, everybody needs help. I mind my business, I keep my life simple. I don’t envy anybody. I want everybody to prosper and do well. But if you are not doing right, I will tell you. If you are doing right I will commend you. But I mean no evil against anybody. I just want everyone to prosper.

Everyone sees that you are a very accommodating person does it have anything to do with your upbringing?

My parents disciplined us even though we were if you like privileged children, comparatively in Nigeria those days. Both of my parents were highly educated and had very good jobs and provided for us what was available but they made us very humble. We went to the farm because my mother said she was a farmer’s daughter, and her children must learn to farm. Each one of us has a house chore we were doing every morning. We made our beds, and wash our clothes. I learned to cook at the age of eight or nine.

We were self-taught, self-sustained, very, very disciplined and told to be humble like normal children. I never forget that we were also told to fear God. We were also told to do our best for mankind. We were also told to pursue our dreams.

So my parents brought us up, with a mixture of discipline and confidence and the ability to take your own decisions and not be fatigued or cowered or pressed by anybody. So while my parents were disciplined you could ask questions. you could discuss, you could negotiate. They never took decisions concerning the house without consulting us.

So when it was time to go to secondary school, I choose my secondary school. What secondary school do you want to go to? I said King’s College. When I graduated, what A-level school do I want to go to? ISR no problem, if you pass you go.

I started driving at the age of 14, my parents encouraged me, and I started taking responsibility from that age, taking after them. Taking my mother to the hospital, driving her up and down. very few children of my age were doing it, their parents were still caging them. So from age 12 to 13, I would get on the bus, and go to Lagos all by myself. Of course, Nigeria was a lot safer when I was in a boarding house in Kings College I will get on a bus and come back. My parents allowed us to. We were taught to be independent-minded, bold, and confident, not to fear anybody, but to be respectful and humble to all.

What is your opinion about this Japa trend?
It is a natural reaction to a difficult environment. Anytime when the environment is difficult for man, a man looks for another way out. When there is famine in the land in the time of Abraham, he left Mesothelioma where he was and went to look for succour first of all in Philistines in Igarra and then in Egypt so people have been Japaring for a long time. It was japa that brought a whole tribe into Egypt because there was no food in Cananaland, there was food in Egypt. So what has happened is that our leaders created a very hostile environment for the average ethical, hardworking, right-thinking Nigerian who is not a corrupt sycophant to survive. So any right-thinking, ethical, hardworking person who wants to work and be rewarded by merit leaves Nigeria because they can not survive in Nigeria and Nigeria that we are in right now. Because Nigeria we have lost merit, we have lost merit, we have lost ethics, we have lost morality.

But when I was growing up, we had ethics, morality and a sense of direction, I didn’t know anybody to go to Kings College. I did the exam, I passed, and they took me. They took me to government College, they took me to Luyola, and I was spoilt for choice. These days if you don’t know somebody, somewhere. In those days if you apply for any job anywhere, if they see your CV and they like it, they invited you for an interview. These days, if you don’t know this, you don’t know that. In those days if you come out of school, you can apply to the civil service. They will take you. If you are qualified. In fact, in those days before you graduated, jobs were waiting for you, plus a car, plus a rent allowance. After a few years, you get a house loan. on your Salary as a civil servant and you build the house. The government will give you government land allocation you pay, over ten or 20 years. Everybody, you didn’t need to know anybody. Your pension was paid when appropriate. You could plan your life. Now it is almost impossible.

How did we get here?

It started with the military intervention in our political affairs based on. the foundation that the British laid. As soon as the military came in. The basis on which we negotiated Nigerians coming together cancelled it, called it a unitary government and renegotiated a Nigeria based on regions each region was self-sustaining. you had a weak centre by Tafawa Balewa, Awolowo controlled the West, later Akintola, Suandana controlled the north, and Zik and Okpara controlled the east. They eventually decided on the Midwest with Osadebe and all these other people but we negotiated a Nigeria based on regions so that each region could develop its natural resources, work at its own pace and run good governance.
But when Agu Ironsi came, he cancelled said the centre was going to be stronger than the regions and that he wanted a unitary government why? Military people have a unitary command. They don’t know how to negotiate, how can your first battalion or your GOC be negotiating with a commander-in-chief, he takes instructions. So that destroyed the bases on which a lot of our resources were developed and harnessed.

Gowon continued that, turned us into twelve states and put military governors who had no commitment, no interest, in the States they were meant to govern. Sine of them came from that state, but they have no interest. They have not been put there by anyone, nobody could check them, and nobody could balance them. They did whatever they wanted. And of course, when there was a bit of corruption, they became corrupt. Eventually, Gowon left and Muritala Mohammed came and started moving governors anywhere. So one Yoruba man will go and be a governor in Kastina. One Kastina man can be a governor in Abeokuta. One Akwa Ibom man can be a governor in Benin. Military movement up and down. So the people were doing whatever they wanted And there was this part of the civil service which now eroded the strength and the competence of the civil service. People like Gowon and Co could do reasonable service well because there was a strong civil service culture checking them and telling them that there are some things they can’t do.

Development plans, they were running it in those days, not as efficiently as they could have if they had regions but they were doing their best

How does it feel to be 62 years

Well, I feel 35, I don’t feel 62 at all, I think I feel 35.

Why is that?

I am just still moving, still doing what I used to do even since age 35 and so on. God has given us grace, he has given us reasonably good health he surrounded us with very good people and He has given us a clear vision of what we are supposed to achieve. So we a pursuing it very aggressively.

What are you most grateful for?

I am grateful for good health, I am grateful for the children that my late wife left behind for me. I am grateful for family, a very, very strong family. My immediate family, my sister, my fantastic people, my sister-in-law. I am thankful for good in-laws too. My mother-in-law, my two brothers-in-law and the other related people in the family. My step brothers and sister inlaws.

I am grateful for the church that God has given me to manage He has given me quite a good set of people who have been of tremendous help and support and understanding. And I am grateful for my practice. SIO, we have very good partners, Mr Getty Mr Smith, mature people who work well together, we love one another. It is more than a partnership, it is a brotherhood. We are brothers we are there for each other and we allow each other to be. And we have been able to together build an institution that has transcends into this level of relationship that will outlive all three of us.

So I am grateful for all that God has done.

It is a painful thing losing my wife, there is no doubt about it. God and I are still talking. But I am thankful that he did put us to shame. And I am thankful that she left an exceptional legacy. Everywhere I go, I hear good comments about what she did, about who she helped and so on. And it is not about saying good things about the departed, it is a question of people genuinely being positively influenced by this great lady. So I am grateful.

My only source of anxiety, like anybody else, I can do a bit more resource, in terms of financial resources personally but my concern is Nigeria and by extension Africa, and people of black skin and then I am also worried about the world. But let me deal with Nigeria first and hope that somewhere or the other God will help us to have very good, great and outstanding leadership in Nigeria. If only that could emerge then I will know that I have done my best.

When you talk about leadership, Nigeria is currently going through security, cash issues and all that, how do you see leadership generally in Nigeria?

Leadership in Nigeria is near failure, let me be honest with you. A lot of people don’t understand how Nigeria is still surviving with the kind of things it has been through. But I think it is the grace of God. The quality of the resource space of Nigeria and the quality of the people depends on their resilience, their creativity, and their ability to survive has kept the country going. But it could have done a lot better if we have had very single-minded, very honest, very ethical, very compassionate leadership that cares about Nigeria and the average Nigerians.

I think the problem of Nigeria is about three or four problems. Number one, we are not quite a nation, people do not quite feel that they are Nigerians. They feel that they are of a certain tribe. We have not been able to wield ourselves together into a nation, thinking nationalistic.

We, first of all, think tribal. and that tribal thinking separates us a little bit. Then, they try to introduce religion into it, I pray they don’t succeed because I grew up in a family where my grand Uncle was Muslim, my grandfather was Christian, my Aunties were Muslim, my uncles Muslims, some were Christian and we all lived happily together so we must not allow that. And we must also know that all the tribes are related and we need one another to survive.

The second problem with Nigeria is the foundation that the British laid, the British colonial masters deliberately did not want to live behind a strong Nigeria or a strong Africa, they wanted an Africa that they will continue to control and influence.

And since we didn’t want them to be our colonial masters anymore, they did the next best thing in their interest, to give us leadership that is not capable,

leadership they could manipulate, the leadership they could blackmail, the leadership they could threaten and leadership that was corrupt. And use that corruption to continue to exploit our resources.

one of them Herbert Marcarly said in 1584 that if you can make the Africans think that everything Africa is inferior and everything British is superior then we can control their minds. And that is how we think today, that is why I am wearing suit, and we are wearing shoes here and there. That is why we prefer straight hair and wigs, and that is why we prefer using fork and knife.

Everyone once they make some money wants to buy a house in London because we have been programmed to think that Mongo Park discovered the River Niger. The Captain brothers were the ones who did this or that.

Lord Lugard was a good man, was he a good man, was he acting in our interest? They manipulated our history, they manipulated our sense of value, they manipulated everything and now we just don’t think like we should be thinking.

The third problem with Nigeria, is the selfishness, greed, the ignorance, of the average Nigerian. They are very, very self-centred people, selfish people, greedy people on average. Apart from our creativity and our hard work, the average just wants things for themselves. So that culture of not thinking for everybody, allows us to rule badly when we have the opportunity to rule. We come into leadership with our selfishness, our greed, with our corruption and we rule like that. We sort ourselves out before we deal with the people. So average Nigeria thinks like that and it keeps breeding that kind of leadership.

The fourth problem in Nigeria is that a few ethical people, who know right from wrong. they are very few, they are getting fewer by the day. Because of this culture that is evolving and those who are few, a lot of them are abroad in the diaspora and those who are around are not courageous enough, or bold enough to face the leadership that has emerged. At the end of the day, they get weary, they get tired, and they go back to their tent.

So corrupt leadership has held the nation hostage, what you call state capture and they continue to reign.

The solution is first of all prayer to God, asking God to help us, because God can help us, he can take a David out of the wilderness and put him into leadership as he did for Singapore with Liwayu, he can take Solomon, He can take an Elisha or a Moses.

Apart from God, the next solution is that those who know better should come together unite and fight for the soul of Nigeria. In this last election, 18 people wanted to run for President of Nigeria, I can tell you straight away that 14 or 15 of them knew they were wasting their time and wasting our time.

They knew they couldn’t do it, Some were capable but they didn’t have the network, and some were not capable. So why were they wasting everybody’s time? And telling us they were candidates. I don’t know what they will benefit from it later on. Maybe somehow, there is some benefit for them later on, maybe they will put it on their CV, that they are ex-presidential candidates, I don’t know. But as far as taking a strong and realistic run for the presidency of Nigeria they were not capable and we’re wasting their time.

And I was saying to myself why don’t they all come together and unite, work together? If they had come together, they would have achieved much, they would have chosen one of them, to represent them. If he becomes President or whatever, the other ones can get various positions and if God gives them long life, they all build together and then can take their position later on but they won’t do it. The Christian leaders won’t unite and speak with one voice and fight for Nigeria.

The knowledgeable Nigerians won’t unite, speak with one voice and fight for Nigeria. Even the political class keep fighting one another all over the place, then the strongest or the most corrupt, or the richest, or the boldest of all of them all takes it all and rows it according to how he likes because he took it by himself.

So in all of these, what exactly are the religious leaders doing?

Religious leaders should first of all be true to themselves. Some of them are not true to themselves. Some of them have gotten into the calling for their reasons, personal aggrandizement, well they are human beings, they are Nigerians, and they have done it. So the first thing is letting them be true to themselves. Are they truly serving God, and helping the people or are helping themselves? Those who are true to themselves should then have a process of speaking the truth and also training according to the ways of Christ their followers and their disciples. So that they can bring to birth, more serious capable competent truthful sincere people.

They should invest in training their people and exposing their people to lead and if possible power. They should unite, come together and look for how to help, bring about competent leadership in Nigeria by being a sincere pressure group, and evaluating what other leaders do. like Nelson Mandela, the Bishop Tutu, they speak, so that people know that we can’t behave anyhow there is a group of leaders, Christians ns and even Muslims that are watching. The reason why David could not misbehave was that Nathan was willing to come to David and say David you have behaved badly. The reason why Moses had to change his strategy was that he had a father-in-law called Jethro. Who came to Moses and say Moses you weary yourself, you stress the people. Appoint other people to help you.

We need in Nigeria people of truth. People that can speak truth to power, number one. number two we need them to come together to select leaders, you want to run, no, no, no where are you coming from? What is your background? They should collectively talk, you will know, that you are capable.

But as it is now, I think maybe they have one or two Godfathers that are doing that, that is selecting people to work with but it does not sit well with the people. isn’t that like saying what is not supposed to be?

We have leaders in political parties now, one or two leaders that select candidates for a position, lets’s take Lagos state for example, people do not exactly like that.

Well let’s be realistic, leaders breed other leaders, and nobody lives forever, David brought Solomon, Moses brought Jouhsua and so forth. God fatherism whether you like it or not is there. The problem with the Godfatherism we are having today is two problems.

number one is the quality of the godfather himself. there are mafia Godfathers, there is Pope Godfather, there is Mother Theresa’s godmother and so forth. The problem we have is the quality of the godfathers.

The second problem is the overbearing influence of the godfather. A godfather needs to know when to back off and say I have done my job. Let me go and be an adviser and let us not have two kings at the same time. David installed Solomon, he backed off. The Oni of Ife came here today, he is my nephew. We supported him to become Oni of Ife but I am not sitting with him at the Palace, telling him what to do and how to run his palace. Once in a while when they say pastor talk to Oni for us, I will talk to him. Once in a while when he does one or two things, I say Oni how did that go, what happened here and he will explain. Then once in a while when it had something good, I say well done, Aburo you have done something great. That is the role of a godfather, not an overbearing influence but a moral conscience as to how things should go. Every society has them. There is a leadership election process and therefore that is the role that the Church must play. I am not saying that they should become politicians, I am just saying that they should have comments in terms of politics and leadership.

People must be able to fear somebody, in those days, they say we don’t vote into a position of power someone whose parents we don’t know, what they are saying is that someone who doesn’t have a check and a balance, who we can report if he misbehaves you don’t give him unfettered power. Because when the power gets into his head, who will talk to him? Above all we all must have the fear of God, it is what guides the behaviour of man, when at the end of the day, you look around, the Jews wear something on their head called the kupó, I asked them why they were that thing on their head, they said it was giving to them by instruction by Moses. That when they put those things on their head especially if they are leaders, they know that there is God on their heads and look down into their brains so they should fear God. So even if they wear a black hat under that black hat, they have it there. Saying that If you don’t fear man, God is watching and that is exactly what we should all do. To fear God.

What keeps me sometimes in check, is when I see this thing I want to do, what will God think? And when you know what God will think, you will decide that you don’t do what your body wants to. So we need to fear God at the end of the day. If we can do that, Nigeria has tremendous resources, unbelievable potential, great Mary of people that can transform this nation but some of them are…

So how does the failure of leadership affects the people generally?

The Bible says that when the wicked rule, the people mourn but when the righteous are in power the people rejoice. One of the greatest examples of leadership in modern-day history is the leader of Dubai, he says a leader’s job is to make his people happy.

The Bible said that everywhere Jesus Christ went, he was doing good. Somebody the other day was thanking a leader, that when he was sick, the leader paid his medical bill, I said that is okay, the problem is that the leader took the money that he would have used to provide free health care for you, your wife, children and unborn children took it and then gave you only a bit of it to pay your medical bills. The people are in pain when a leader does not consider the people. The reason why David was a great leader was that he loved his people. The people were broke, the people were in trouble, they were broken, and the people were destroyed. The people had no hope we were those that ran to David and within a few years, he turned them into mighty men. So if you have a good leader, he will build good hospitals, good schools, and good roads. He will not overtask the people. He will exploit the resources, he will make sure that every child has an opportunity to live, he will make sure like they do in Dubai, that once you graduate they will give you some money, once you get to a certain age they will give you a building, they encourage you to be educated. If you want to go to school, they allow you to go to school.

Awolowo gave us free education, he gave Cocoa House, Awolowo gave the WNTV, he did a lot of roads in and out of the whole place, he did was we call the WNDC today, or Odua group that created industry and employment and all that, till today, they still consider western Nigeria to be the intellectual powerhouse of Nigeria. it was the leadership that created free education that brought that to bear. We heard Professor Oyebode today, he said he was a beneficiary of free education and through him, he has a lot of lawyers in his family, and I am sure he is talking about himself, one or two of his brothers, whom he educated, his two children who are lawyers, maybe one or two of his children’s wife or in-laws that are lawyers. There is also a family in the north that is like that. They have about 32 PHD or second-degree holders. Magaji’s family also, Usman Mugaji was telling him, that they invested a lot in education they meet once in a while, they talk together, and everyone is a graduate.

And in all of these, with the elections are done, what do you have to say, to the incoming government?

They should please, I beg work in the best interest of the average Nigerian. They should if they can get rid of corruption. How many beds does a man sleep on? How many clothes does he want to wear? They should not a throne corruption in this country. They should try to get the best brains to do the best for Nigeria. They should be selfless and not go there to make money or share the cake. They should be bold enough to restructure our nation and our economy and stop us from being dependent on oil alone. They should be fair to all Nigerians. That is what I am begging them to do.

At 62 Sir what lessons have you learned in life?
The first lesson that I learned was when I was about ten years old. I ran for elections. in my primary school, I campaigned very well that I began to act as though I was already a school prefect because I felt I was quite qualified to do the job and I was ready to serve so I became a bit strict, I was acting when the election came I lost woefully. Those who had promised to vote for me none of them did.

So the first lesson I learned is that you cannot trust men, every man and woman including yourself at the end of the day they will be acting in their interest.

The second lesson I learned from my parents was that truth never fails. When you are truthful, you tell the truth, you will not fail and you will have no fear. I sleep well because I am a truthful person. I don’t exaggerate, I don’t flatter unnecessarily, and I don’t even flatter people, I tell the truth as I see it nicely. I don’t owe anybody. I don’t go begging people unnecessarily, I do ask people to do me one or two favours and help me. But I don’t beg anybody for anything. US you can help me, help. If you can’t don’t help me, everybody needs help. I mind my business, I keep my life simple. I don’t envy anybody. I want everybody to prosper and do well. But if you are not doing right, I will tell you. If you are doing right I will commend you. But I mean no evil against anybody. I just want everyone to prosper.

Everyone sees that you are a very accommodating person does it have anything to do with your upbringing?

My parents disciplined us even though we were if you like privileged children, comparatively in Nigeria those days. Both of my parents were highly educated and had very good jobs and provided for us what was available but they made us very humble. We went to the farm because my mother said she was a farmer’s daughter, and her children must learn to farm. Each one of us has a house chore we were doing every morning. We made our beds, and wash our clothes. I learned to cook at the age of eight or nine.

We were self-taught, self-sustained, very, very disciplined and told to be humble like normal children. I never forget that we were also told to fear God. We were also told to do our best for mankind. We were also told to pursue our dreams.

So my parents brought us up, with a mixture of discipline and confidence and the ability to take your own decisions and not be fatigued or cowered or pressed by anybody. So while my parents were disciplined you could ask questions. you could discuss, you could negotiate. They never took decisions concerning the house without consulting us.

So when it was time to go to secondary school, I choose my secondary school. What secondary school do you want to go to? I said King’s College. When I graduated, what A-level school do I want to go to? ISR no problem, if you pass you go.

I started driving at the age of 14, my parents encouraged me, and I started taking responsibility from that age, taking after them. Taking my mother to the hospital, driving her up and down. very few children of my age were doing it, their parents were still caging them. So from age 12 to 13, I would get on the bus, and go to Lagos all by myself. Of course, Nigeria was a lot safer when I was in a boarding house in Kings College I will get on a bus and come back. My parents allowed us to. We were taught to be independent-minded, bold, and confident, not to fear anybody, but to be respectful and humble to all.

What is your opinion about this Japa trend?
It is a natural reaction to a difficult environment. Anytime when the environment is difficult for man, a man looks for another way out. When there is famine in the land in the time of Abraham, he left Mesothelioma where he was and went to look for succour first of all in Philistines in Igarra and then in Egypt so people have been Japaring for a long time. It was japa that brought a whole tribe into Egypt because there was no food in Cananaland, there was food in Egypt. So what has happened is that our leaders created a very hostile environment for the average ethical, hardworking, right-thinking Nigerian who is not a corrupt sycophant to survive. So any right-thinking, ethical, hardworking person who wants to work and be rewarded by merit leaves Nigeria because they can not survive in Nigeria and Nigeria that we are in right now. Because Nigeria we have lost merit, we have lost merit, we have lost ethics, we have lost morality.

But when I was growing up, we had ethics, morality and a sense of direction, I didn’t know anybody to go to Kings College. I did the exam, I passed, and they took me. They took me to government College, they took me to Luyola, and I was spoilt for choice. These days if you don’t know somebody, somewhere. In those days if you apply for any job anywhere, if they see your CV and they like it, they invited you for an interview. These days, if you don’t know this, you don’t know that. In those days if you come out of school, you can apply to the civil service. They will take you. If you are qualified. In fact, in those days before you graduated, jobs were waiting for you, plus a car, plus a rent allowance. After a few years, you get a house loan. on your Salary as a civil servant and you build the house. The government will give you government land allocation you pay, over ten or 20 years. Everybody, you didn’t need to know anybody. Your pension was paid when appropriate. You could plan your life. Now it is almost impossible.

How did we get here?

It started with the military intervention in our political affairs based on. the foundation that the British laid. As soon as the military came in. The basis on which we negotiated Nigerians coming together cancelled it, called it a unitary government and renegotiated a Nigeria based on regions each region was self-sustaining. you had a weak centre by Tafawa Balewa, Awolowo controlled the West, later Akintola, Suandana controlled the north, and Zik and Okpara controlled the east. They eventually decided on the Midwest with Osadebe and all these other people but we negotiated a Nigeria based on regions so that each region could develop its natural resources, work at its own pace and run good governance.
But when Agu Ironsi came, he cancelled said the centre was going to be stronger than the regions and that he wanted a unitary government why? Military people have a unitary command. They don’t know how to negotiate, how can your first battalion or your GOC be negotiating with a commander-in-chief, he takes instructions. So that destroyed the bases on which a lot of our resources were developed and harnessed.

Gowon continued that, turned us into twelve states and put military governors who had no commitment, no interest, in the States they were meant to govern. Sine of them came from that state, but they have no interest. They have not been put there by anyone, nobody could check them, and nobody could balance them. They did whatever they wanted. And of course, when there was a bit of corruption, they became corrupt. Eventually, Gowon left and Muritala Mohammed came and started moving governors anywhere. So one Yoruba man will go and be a governor in Kastina. One Kastina man can be a governor in Abeokuta. One Akwa Ibom man can be a governor in Benin. Military movement up and down. So the people were doing whatever they wanted And there was this part of the civil service which now eroded the strength and the competence of the civil service. People like Gowon and Co could do reasonable service well because there was a strong civil service culture checking them and telling them that there are some things they can’t do.

Development plans, they were running it in those days, not as efficiently as they could have if they had regions but they were doing their best

How does it feel to be 62 years

Well, I feel 35, I don’t feel 62 at all, I think I feel 35.

Why is that?

I am just still moving, still doing what I used to do even since age 35 and so on. God has given us grace, he has given us reasonably good health he surrounded us with very good people and He has given us a clear vision of what we are supposed to achieve. So we a pursuing it very aggressively.

What are you most grateful for?

I am grateful for good health, I am grateful for the children that my late wife left behind for me. I am grateful for family, a very, very strong family. My immediate family, my sister, my fantastic people, my sister-in-law. I am thankful for good in-laws too. My mother-in-law, my two brothers-in-law and the other related people in the family. My step brothers and sister inlaws.

I am grateful for the church that God has given me to manage He has given me quite a good set of people who have been of tremendous help and support and understanding. And I am grateful for my practice. SIO, we have very good partners, Mr Getty Mr Smith, mature people who work well together, we love one another. It is more than a partnership, it is a brotherhood. We are brothers we are there for each other and we allow each other to be. And we have been able to together build an institution that has transcends into this level of relationship that will outlive all three of us.

So I am grateful for all that God has done.

It is a painful thing losing my wife, there is no doubt about it. God and I are still talking. But I am thankful that he did put us to shame. And I am thankful that she left an exceptional legacy. Everywhere I go, I hear good comments about what she did, about who she helped and so on. And it is not about saying good things about the departed, it is a question of people genuinely being positively influenced by this great lady. So I am grateful.

My only source of anxiety, like anybody else, I can do a bit more resource, in terms of financial resources personally but my concern is Nigeria and by extension Africa, and people of black skin and then I am also worried about the world. But let me deal with Nigeria first and hope that somewhere or the other God will help us to have very good, great and outstanding leadership in Nigeria. If only that could emerge then I will know that I have done my best.

When you talk about leadership, Nigeria is currently going through security, cash issues and all that, how do you see leadership generally in Nigeria?

Leadership in Nigeria is near failure, let me be honest with you. A lot of people don’t understand how Nigeria is still surviving with the kind of things it has been through. But I think it is the grace of God. The quality of the resource space of Nigeria and the quality of the people depends on their resilience, their creativity, and their ability to survive has kept the country going. But it could have done a lot better if we have had very single-minded, very honest, very ethical, very compassionate leadership that cares about Nigeria and the average Nigerians.

I think the problem of Nigeria is about three or four problems. Number one, we are not quite a nation, people do not quite feel that they are Nigerians. They feel that they are of a certain tribe. We have not been able to wield ourselves together into a nation, thinking nationalistic.

We, first of all, think tribal. and that tribal thinking separates us a little bit. Then, they try to introduce religion into it, I pray they don’t succeed because I grew up in a family where my grand Uncle was Muslim, my grandfather was Christian, my Aunties were Muslim, my uncles Muslims, some were Christian and we all lived happily together so we must not allow that. And we must also know that all the tribes are related and we need one another to survive.

The second problem with Nigeria is the foundation that the British laid, the British colonial masters deliberately did not want to live behind a strong Nigeria or a strong Africa, they wanted an Africa that they will continue to control and influence.

And since we didn’t want them to be our colonial masters anymore, they did the next best thing in their interest, to give us leadership that is not capable,

leadership they could manipulate, the leadership they could blackmail, the leadership they could threaten and leadership that was corrupt. And use that corruption to continue to exploit our resources.

one of them Herbert Marcarly said in 1584 that if you can make the Africans think that everything Africa is inferior and everything British is superior then we can control their minds. And that is how we think today, that is why I am wearing suit, and we are wearing shoes here and there. That is why we prefer straight hair and wigs, and that is why we prefer using fork and knife.

Everyone once they make some money wants to buy a house in London because we have been programmed to think that Mongo Park discovered the River Niger. The Captain brothers were the ones who did this or that.

Lord Lugard was a good man, was he a good man, was he acting in our interest? They manipulated our history, they manipulated our sense of value, they manipulated everything and now we just don’t think like we should be thinking.

The third problem with Nigeria, is the selfishness, greed, the ignorance, of the average Nigerian. They are very, very self-centred people, selfish people, greedy people on average. Apart from our creativity and our hard work, the average just wants things for themselves. So that culture of not thinking for everybody, allows us to rule badly when we have the opportunity to rule. We come into leadership with our selfishness, our greed, with our corruption and we rule like that. We sort ourselves out before we deal with the people. So average Nigeria thinks like that and it keeps breeding that kind of leadership.

The fourth problem in Nigeria is that a few ethical people, who know right from wrong. they are very few, they are getting fewer by the day. Because of this culture that is evolving and those who are few, a lot of them are abroad in the diaspora and those who are around are not courageous enough, or bold enough to face the leadership that has emerged. At the end of the day, they get weary, they get tired, and they go back to their tent.

So corrupt leadership has held the nation hostage, what you call state capture and they continue to reign.

The solution is first of all prayer to God, asking God to help us, because God can help us, he can take a David out of the wilderness and put him into leadership as he did for Singapore with Liwayu, he can take Solomon, He can take an Elisha or a Moses.

Apart from God, the next solution is that those who know better should come together unite and fight for the soul of Nigeria. In this last election, 18 people wanted to run for President of Nigeria, I can tell you straight away that 14 or 15 of them knew they were wasting their time and wasting our time.

They knew they couldn’t do it, Some were capable but they didn’t have the network, and some were not capable. So why were they wasting everybody’s time? And telling us they were candidates. I don’t know what they will benefit from it later on. Maybe somehow, there is some benefit for them later on, maybe they will put it on their CV, that they are ex-presidential candidates, I don’t know. But as far as taking a strong and realistic run for the presidency of Nigeria they were not capable and we’re wasting their time.

And I was saying to myself why don’t they all come together and unite, work together? If they had come together, they would have achieved much, they would have chosen one of them, to represent them. If he becomes President or whatever, the other ones can get various positions and if God gives them long life, they all build together and then can take their position later on but they won’t do it. The Christian leaders won’t unite and speak with one voice and fight for Nigeria.

The knowledgeable Nigerians won’t unite, speak with one voice and fight for Nigeria. Even the political class keep fighting one another all over the place, then the strongest or the most corrupt, or the richest, or the boldest of all of them all takes it all and rows it according to how he likes because he took it by himself.

So in all of these, what exactly are the religious leaders doing?

Religious leaders should first of all be true to themselves. Some of them are not true to themselves. Some of them have gotten into the calling for their reasons, personal aggrandizement, well they are human beings, they are Nigerians, and they have done it. So the first thing is letting them be true to themselves. Are they truly serving God, and helping the people or are helping themselves? Those who are true to themselves should then have a process of speaking the truth and also training according to the ways of Christ their followers and their disciples. So that they can bring to birth, more serious capable competent truthful sincere people.

They should invest in training their people and exposing their people to lead and if possible power. They should unite, come together and look for how to help, bring about competent leadership in Nigeria by being a sincere pressure group, and evaluating what other leaders do. like Nelson Mandela, the Bishop Tutu, they speak, so that people know that we can’t behave anyhow there is a group of leaders, Christians ns and even Muslims that are watching. The reason why David could not misbehave was that Nathan was willing to come to David and say David you have behaved badly. The reason why Moses had to change his strategy was that he had a father-in-law called Jethro. Who came to Moses and say Moses you weary yourself, you stress the people. Appoint other people to help you.

We need in Nigeria people of truth. People that can speak truth to power, number one. number two we need them to come together to select leaders, you want to run, no, no, no where are you coming from? What is your background? They should collectively talk, you will know, that you are capable.

But as it is now, I think maybe they have one or two Godfathers that are doing that, that is selecting people to work with but it does not sit well with the people. isn’t that like saying what is not supposed to be?

We have leaders in political parties now, one or two leaders that select candidates for a position, lets’s take Lagos state for example, people do not exactly like that.

Well let’s be realistic, leaders breed other leaders, and nobody lives forever, David brought Solomon, Moses brought Jouhsua and so forth. God fatherism whether you like it or not is there. The problem with the Godfatherism we are having today is two problems.

number one is the quality of the godfather himself. there are mafia Godfathers, there is Pope Godfather, there is Mother Theresa’s godmother and so forth. The problem we have is the quality of the godfathers.

The second problem is the overbearing influence of the godfather. A godfather needs to know when to back off and say I have done my job. Let me go and be an adviser and let us not have two kings at the same time. David installed Solomon, he backed off. The Oni of Ife came here today, he is my nephew. We supported him to become Oni of Ife but I am not sitting with him at the Palace, telling him what to do and how to run his palace. Once in a while when they say pastor talk to Oni for us, I will talk to him. Once in a while when he does one or two things, I say Oni how did that go, what happened here and he will explain. Then once in a while when it had something good, I say well done, Aburo you have done something great. That is the role of a godfather, not an overbearing influence but a moral conscience as to how things should go. Every society has them. There is a leadership election process and therefore that is the role that the Church must play. I am not saying that they should become politicians, I am just saying that they should have comments in terms of politics and leadership.

People must be able to fear somebody, in those days, they say we don’t vote into a position of power someone whose parents we don’t know, what they are saying is that someone who doesn’t have a check and a balance, who we can report if he misbehaves you don’t give him unfettered power. Because when the power gets into his head, who will talk to him? Above all we all must have the fear of God, it is what guides the behaviour of man, when at the end of the day, you look around, the Jews wear something on their head called the kupó, I asked them why they were that thing on their head, they said it was giving to them by instruction by Moses. That when they put those things on their head especially if they are leaders, they know that there is God on their heads and look down into their brains so they should fear God. So even if they wear a black hat under that black hat, they have it there. Saying that If you don’t fear man, God is watching and that is exactly what we should all do. To fear God.

What keeps me sometimes in check, is when I see this thing I want to do, what will God think? And when you know what God will think, you will decide that you don’t do what your body wants to. So we need to fear God at the end of the day. If we can do that, Nigeria has tremendous resources, unbelievable potential, great Mary of people that can transform this nation but some of them are…

So how does the failure of leadership affects the people generally?

The Bible says that when the wicked rule, the people mourn but when the righteous are in power the people rejoice. One of the greatest examples of leadership in modern-day history is the leader of Dubai, he says a leader’s job is to make his people happy.

The Bible said that everywhere Jesus Christ went, he was doing good. Somebody the other day was thanking a leader, that when he was sick, the leader paid his medical bill, I said that is okay, the problem is that the leader took the money that he would have used to provide free health care for you, your wife, children and unborn children took it and then gave you only a bit of it to pay your medical bills. The people are in pain when a leader does not consider the people. The reason why David was a great leader was that he loved his people. The people were broke, the people were in trouble, they were broken, and the people were destroyed. The people had no hope we were those that ran to David and within a few years, he turned them into mighty men. So if you have a good leader, he will build good hospitals, good schools, and good roads. He will not overtask the people. He will exploit the resources, he will make sure that every child has an opportunity to live, he will make sure like they do in Dubai, that once you graduate they will give you some money, once you get to a certain age they will give you a building, they encourage you to be educated. If you want to go to school, they allow you to go to school.

Awolowo gave us free education, he gave Cocoa House, Awolowo gave the WNTV, he did a lot of roads in and out of the whole place, he did was we call the WNDC today, or Odua group that created industry and employment and all that, till today, they still consider western Nigeria to be the intellectual powerhouse of Nigeria. it was the leadership that created free education that brought that to bear. We heard Professor Oyebode today, he said he was a beneficiary of free education and through him, he has a lot of lawyers in his family, and I am sure he is talking about himself, one or two of his brothers, whom he educated, his two children who are lawyers, maybe one or two of his children’s wife or in-laws that are lawyers. There is also a family in the north that is like that. They have about 32 PHD or second-degree holders. Magaji’s family also, Usman Mugaji was telling him, that they invested a lot in education they meet once in a while, they talk together, and everyone is a graduate.

And in all of these, with the elections are done, what do you have to say, to the incoming government?

They should please, I beg work
[4/15, 20:10] My Luv: But as soon as Muritala Mohammed did that, and eroded that crop of civil servants they became corrupt, that was a backlash. They now said to themselves what is the point, of being a good civil servant, let me just take whatever I can because any day somebody can come and sack me.

Not only that, the best civil servants fell into that purge because some of it was a bit of a witch hunt by the civil servants themselves. So the best fell, some people died, and one or two committed suicide, they didn’t know their careers will end like that so that destroyed the civil service. By the time the first republic came in 79, the politicians that came now professionalised corruption and built on that military platform without having any thought or desire for the whole of Nigeria so they were picketing most of our resources. Military came back again with more vengeance, more corruption and all that then by 1999 we were already in a hole that was difficult to come out from.

It was a progressive set of very, very not very capable leadership that brought us here in a nutshell.

At 62, you still look the way I saw you ten years ago, what is the secret?

It is the grace of God and as I said, I keep my life simple. I don’t eat much. I am trying to exercise a bit more now with advancing age. but let me say it is the grace of God in living a simple life. Most of my siblings are quite young looking too, my brother especially, my sister too she is trying. I keep my life simple.

That is how I grew up, in the most enlightened society, I grew up with a father who dress very well, and an environment where they thought us proper dressing and look the part. you mustn’t overdress but you also must dress for the occasion and dress respectfully, so we try to miss and match. God has helped us, just to look decent, to look nice and to be able to deliver the message. That we have been sent.

So at 62, looking at your life generally, if you were editing anything out, what will that be?

I have no regrets in life, sometimes I wished I knew God earlier and got born again earlier maybe when I was 18, 19, or 20 I wish. But then when I was playing the field, I played it very well also. I lived a good life, partied, cars, chased girls, and did all those things. Is it a regret, sometimes but then the experiences that I learned, the relationship that I cultivated the people that I knew? A lot of them that are here today, I knew them from even my partying days and we are friends today. Maybe you hurt one or two people, it is regrettable but a lot of them are still my friends. Some of them, I have apologised to them and I have helped some of them become born-again Christians because of knowing ourselves from the past.

So when that lifestyle is regrettable, the benefits of the experience and the outcomes, I am not regretting. Because everything good or bad that has happened to me has been experience. It was painful to lose my wife but something I am able to say to God, the pain that I learned, that compassion for other people who go through that kind of pain can not be paid for. So it has become again an experience that has made me a much better person. so nobody can lose someone now and I will treat it trivially. Oni of Ife was saying I am always there, I am always there. I learned it from the things I suffered when I needed people at a certain time in my life, they were not there. So when people need me, I am there for them.

I have learned the pain of losing my parents, so if you lose your parents, I am there for you. I have learned the pain of losing your wife, if you lose your wife or your spouse, I am there for you. Encouraging you, telling you to trust God. So while those were pains, they have become a beneficial experience that made me a better person a calmer person, a much more mature person, a much more respectful person, much more concerned person and therefore I take my life easy. I try my best not to have enemies, there is nobody I don’t like, I torrolate everybody. A few people may not like me for one reason or the other, they may not like the way I look, what I wear, or something I said either jokingly or mistake. I don’t go out of my way to say anything bad about anybody. They may not like the fact that I tell the truth, and I can’t do anything about that, but I am not going to reply to them in kind I am going to like them because there is nobody on earth that I don’t talk to. We might have quarrelled in the past, if you think I have offended you, I am very quick to apologise. And it is because I want to be available to help you if ever that day comes. But if we disagree on principle, I say to you, this thing you are doing to me I don’t like. But it is okay, we don’t need to quarrel about it but I have warned you, that this is where it will end up but if you choose on doing it, do it. There is no problem, I am not going to fight you because of what you want to do.

There is nothing about my life that I regret, I will come back as a Nigerian. I love Nigeria, even before I became a pastor, one of my friends says I was acting like a pastor. I have always been generous, and I have always been kind. I was born a bit of a nicer, as a child, I lost some money in the bar beach here, that was when I knew that money is useless and that you have to quickly spend money and give it out. If you give me money I was keeping it, I came to the river here, my uncle brought me, and the water washed my money away. All the money I was keeping became useless. I learned my lessons early in life. from that day forward, I knew, that whenever you make money let money work for you. So I make money work for me. There is nothing I have that I can not give out. There is nothing that is so critical to me that I can’t give out.

As anybody in this church, there is nobody that hasn’t gotten something from me.

What will the Nigeria of your dream be?
A Nigeria where first of all there is peace, secondly there is harmony, tolerance, live and let’s live. Thirdly, there is Security, fourthly there is opportunity for every Nigerian to succeed according to merit.

If you have these four things, the rest will take care of itself. There will be roads, there will be rail, there will be infrastructure, there will be light, and there will be power. There will be education. If we have a society where you can aspire to become anything as long as you are ready to work hard, you can become governor or President of Nigeria as long as she is ready to work hard and play fair. Same thing for her, not that some people will say, this is our own, you can come here, why? The earth is the Lord and all there is. Let us all compete according to the rules and complete daily and if you win win graciously, if you lose, lose with maturity and even in winning or losing work ahead together and cooperate. Nobody has become governor, he competed against somebody else, no problem, the election is over, I won, you lost, come be my commissioner for finance. let’s work together, it is up to them. You have skill be my head of treasury, be my head of these parastatals because I saw you, you completed well. It is just that God chose me let’s work together.

Tomorrow you want to compete against me again no problem, resign in six months go and complete May the best man win.

Finally, how do you relax?
My work is my relaxation. The work that I do, is my relaxation, I don’t even consider it work. I consider it life. So today, I had a very relaxing afternoon listening to speeches, and people telling us about Nigeria and everything and I enjoyed myself, there is no pressure for me. Again, I delegate. A lot of what happened today, other people did them. I empowered people, they did them. I didn’t even come here to inspect this place because I knew the calibre and quality and capacity of the people. On those days, I will go around inspecting. But this one has done work for me before. I have told them, this is what I want. This is how I want it, and I allow people to make mistakes. They learn from mistakes. I prepare for people’s mistakes so that nothing disappoints me, I just want to achieve my goal, with as many people as are ready to work with me. And my goal is simply to make life simpler.

This theme, inspired it?

To be honest, I didn’t even choose it. It was Jerry that chose it in a new Nigeria leadership. If I choose this theme, it will be a simpler theme. I will just call it a new Nigeria end of story. But Jerry chose it, he liked it, and he was working hard at it, I didn’t want to discourage him, so I amended it a bit so that it sounded a bit nicer. And I said run with it. But we want a new Nigeria, we want Nigeria to be transformed. We want Nigeria to be good. We want you to step out of this door and feel safe. We want you to live your house at 1 am and you are going to Onistha on an eight-way expressway with no fear.

The Laurels international Magazine